Saturday, October 27, 2007

PART 2 - Inter-racial dating and black women

Dating inter-racially has it's hurdles. In fact, there seem to be so many hurdles, that some people make the decision to avoid them completely. One such hurdle that is discussed often is the belief that dating inter-racially is an expression of self-hate. This belief produces feelings of guilt and the idea that one is somehow betraying others.

But is dating out self hate? The word hate is a pretty strong word and is universally understood. But the term - SELF - seems to divide some people. Some people identify very strongly with their race, and consider there -RACE- to be their -SELF-. And while our race is certainly a part of who each and every one of us are, our race is not our self, our race is merely our genes which determine skin tone, hair color and texture, and facial features. One's self does not reside in the genes. One's self resides in the soul. Our "selves" refer to each individual, and each individual alone. While we feel closeness to our parents, our children, perhaps other members of our nationality, or race, or - SELVES- are ours and ours alone.

Hatred of course comes in many forms. Some hatred is directed towards individuals, while other forms are directed towards groups. The only form of individual based hatred that could be considered self-hatred is if you hate, well, yourself, and yourself alone. There are some group forms of hatred that can also be considered self hatred. For example, if you express hatred towards a group of people that you happen to be a member of, that could be considered self-hatred. If I as a man express hatred for humanity, that is a form of self-hatred. But if I is a man express hatred towards women, while being an expression of hatred, it is not actually SELF-hatred.

I've heard it commonly expressed that dating inter-racially is an expression of self hatred based on a couple different ideas. Black men who date inter-racially are often said to express self-hatred when their perceived reason for doing so is because they "hate" black women. Granted, in cases such as these, or when black men date inter-racially while making denigrating remarks towards black women, it IS a form of hatred. But like the above example of a man who expresses hatred for women, a black man that expresses hatred for black women is NOT expressing SELF-hatred, for the group that they are expressing hatred for is not a group in which they belong to. Now, that doesn't make it any better, or more acceptable, it is just making a justification, that black men who express animosity towards black women are not acting out of SELF-hatred, but are acting on common everyday HATRED.

Another reason that is sometimes used to rationalize that black men who date inter-racially are acting on self-hatred is the belief that the black men in question have adopted the ideology of white supremacy. However, one cannot conclude that just because a man sees white WOMEN as ideal, that the man is adopting the ideology of white supremacy. White supremacy is the belief that white PEOPLE are superior to all others. If a black man truly believed in such an ideology, he would not just put white women on a pedestal, but white MEN as well. If this were happening, the black man in question would most likely have white male role-models, listen to white male musicians, be fans of white athletes, idolize white actors, and pursue friendships with white males. In cases such as this, there very well MIGHT be a belief in white supremacy. However, in instances in which the black man in question does NOT put white men on a pedastal (which from my own personal experience includes just about ALL of them), the claim of white supremacy just doesn't add up. What about when black men date white women, yet listen to hip hop? If there is an industry that puts the black male more front and center than hip hop, I have yet to hear of it. What about black men who date white women but only have black male role-models? Many black males who date white women seem to somewhat look DOWN on white men.

The idea that these men are following the ideology of white supremacy does not add up. A more accurate ideology would be the idea that black=male and white=female; or put in another way the belief that the black race is a "masculine" race and the white race is a "feminine" race. This ideology would explain why black men who chase after white women think highly of themselves, but not black women. This would also explain why these men put all things white and "feminine" on a pedestal while looking down on white males. While this notion, that black = male and white = female would most likely be seen as offensive to white males and black females (for obvious reasons), it is not hard to see why some black men might find this mindset appealing. With this mindset, the black man becomes the alpha male and the the envy of all men. As the alpha male, he naturally deserves the alpha female (white woman). In this mindset, it is only NATURAL to the black man in question that he end up with a white female. The fact that black women suffer as a result of this mindset is of course no concern to those who embrace it.

And many black women seem to mistake this philosophy that black= masculine with black=bad. They don't recognize that it with this ideology that it is only black FEMALES that = bad, not black males. As a result of this misinterpretation, some black women vow to date ONLY black men with hopes of re-affirming black beauty, when in reality they are only re-affirming that black= masculine.

While we've covered the topic of hatred, let's touch on the subject of love. It is human nature to look out for and protect the best interest of those whom we love. Keep this in mind when addressing the issue of black men dating out and disrespecting black women. Whose best interest are they looking out for? I think the answer goes without saying. And with this in mind it seems quite obvious to me the one thing that black men and black women have most in common. Black men and black women both love black men.

76 comments:

Miriam said...

so clever! Once again another quotable quote. Would you mind if I quoted your last phrase?

Also, i'd love to hear your take on the opposite WM & BW.

monA said...

Wow. It's really sad that men of other races can see through black men better than most black women can. But yes, I too have noticed that the black men who are most denigrating of black women aren't the sale out uncle toms types but the misogonist hip-hopish ones. A quick search of the Internet will show that there are more hateful and racist things said about black women on the hip-hop boards than stormfront.

There's a saying in the black community, used more be men than women - "You get in where you can fit in" And that is what I think black men are doing, they've taken the Mandingo myth and black women's near 100% loyalty and twisted it into some new sick paradigm of black male masculinity, where all that is required is dark skin,a wide nose, and an arrogant attitude to be masculine.

Even though I am madly in love with and married to a white guy, I still love black men too, since they are still my father, uncles, brothers, and nephews. But we as black women must start loving black men enough to tell them directly what masculinty is. It's not a skin color or a facial feature, or a style of dressing but the ability to be an independent thinker not affected by the media; self-reliant; hardworking; honest; kind; and to have the moral values to be willing to fight and protect your women and children at all costs.

Right now black men are having a masculinity crisis and as they drive themselves to extinction they're lashing out at in attempt to bring everyone they come into contact with them. That's why whe can't take what they say too seriously, so many are suffering from a sickness of immaturity. Black men's only hope is for black women to walk away and find men who are truly "masculine".

And I doubt that white and other non-black women will stick around after black women give up on them, because a large part of the attraction for white women is making black women and white men jealous. Once being with a black man is no longer trendy and doesn't get them a lot of attention they'll move onto something else and all black men will have left is each other in prison, unfortunately. That's why I hope that they wake up before its too late.

Anonymous said...

Wow. That was pretty amazing. i think it's very important to make this difference clear to women and men who may not realize that the bottom line is bw have to start loving themselves as re-affirmation, and not turn to some external source. Respecting one another, and then seeking out what is truly in their best interest is the only way to make "something new" work in the long term.

Throughout the history of blacks in America we have defined the community in terms of men. We've defined ourselves in terms of the way black men are treated. So, in some ways, it makes perfect sense that women would re-affirm their validity and attractiveness by uplifting black men. Your post can shed some much needed light on the fact that this behavior only digs our graves deeper and deeper. great job :) I really did enjoy that.

Anonymous said...

"And with this in mind it seems quite obvious to me the one thing that black men and black women have most in common. Black men and black women both love black men."


This, after reading the post, had me laughing. Not because I was like, "no he didn't!" But, "damn, that was so true". Although not all BW think this way, but the ones that have the "nothing but a black man" mentality are sure to find this last line offensive.

Goes to the case of not self-hate, but self-love! Which I believe all BW should partake in this medicine..

Are these self-haters.....

Self-hatred for ones blackness. (Michael Jackson) Black men who focus on white women and the "white world" aren't self-haters, but what the black community calls "selling out". But if BW marry/dates a non-Black man, they automatically get called a "sell out".

White men who immerse themselves in the black community or other communities of another race. (ex: a reality show featured a man who wanted to be Latino, so he joined a Latino gang. He had dark coloring and could pass, but they knew him as "a white boy, who wants to be Latino" he even gave himself a Latino name) This can also be viewed as self-hate, but the reasons are usually to escape the "White privilege" view other groups have on them. The embarrassment they feel for being born "white" and being hated by their non-white peers because they "may" have it easier in life than their counterparts.

I wonder if Middle Easterners are suffering from self-hate at this moment. Their race is being attacked because of their look/religion/and some terrorist people that resemble them. Even Indians have been mistaken for Middle Easterners, although they aren't. They are trying to change their look so that they aren't so "recognizable" to others and keep themselves apart.

I don't want to keep on...but I often wonder about self-hate and race/gender/etc How they can be defined, since everyone's perception is such a tiny fraction of the actual definition.

Practicing self-love is so much better....

Dee

chandy said...

Very astute article. I like and agree on your take on many I/R issues and want to add my kudos.

Having lived and worked outside the USA for a while, many views expressed are quite astounding for me to decipher and the more I peruse these blogs, the more I'm confronted with such realities and it leaves me bleeding for the fact that obviously BW are so lacking in self-confidence (an huge surprise for me). Where did this come from and when did it happen?.

Such enlightening articles as yours hopefully will help some of them find the truth within themselves, face facts, move to heck on and live a life free of burdens that are unnecessary.

Well done. This truly brought tears to my eyes.

chandy said...

".....it seems quite obvious to me the one thing that black men and black women have most in common. Black men and black women both love black men".


So sad, but true. When will BW wake up and smell the coffee?. How can other men find them appealing when they allow themselves to be emotionally and physically abused?. AND on top of that it shows.

Saddie said...

“Whose best interest are they looking out for? I think the answer goes without saying. And with this in mind it seems quite obvious to me the one thing that black men and black women have most in common. Black men and black women both love black men.”

"Wow".
Great post.
I have a few friends that should read this blog.

To anon 5:06.
I live here in Europe and you would not believe what some Middle Easterners and Asians here in Denmark are doing to themselves to look more western. They are trying to erase the very thing that makes them who they are. Very sad to see.

Anonymous said...

I think the situation is as intense as it can be get before things get better or worse. With the mentality in Brazil (white girls for marrying, Mullato girls for f**king, Black girls for working), the Mexican hangups, Spanish hangups, Latin hangups as a whole, the Asian hangups, the Indian Hangups, and Black hangups.. it is definitely time for BW to get in where we fit in. Whites are soon going out as the majority in this country. These others are stepping in. Not one Black leader (male or female) has responded to help Dunbar Village, despite being made aware of what's going on with BW in black communities by WAOD numerous times. Wasn't G. Wilson just compared to Jesus after getting together with a handful of other black boys and taking turns with two intoxicated (possibly drugged) girls? I remember watching Obama come to his defense too.

We have an opportunity to re-affirm "black female" in our minds by loving ourselves first.

We have an opportunity to affirm "black female" in popular culture (internationally) by pooling our money together, and taking our money away from sources that are spreading lies about us all over the globe through Cable television.

The Enough is Enough campaign is working on cable choice, wherein our money doesn't automatically go to BET and VH! just for buying a cable package. How many whites, Asians, and so forth would purposely include BET in their package if they had a choice? If we can accomplish that alone, daily images degrading us all over the world (BET) would be brought to it's knees. TVONE might emerge to take it's place. A professional bw channel may come to the forefront.. IF we chose to purchase it.

We have the opportunity to re-affirm "black female" in our communities by dating and marrying and producing families with the men who respect us and love our hair, our noses, our lips, our hips, and our skin- in all their varying sizes and colors. We can raise children who would do the work of protecting our images by being good mothers with high self esteem.

The easiest and most revolutionary thing we as BW can do for future generations (everywhere, every color) is to get in where we fit in. IF a WM loves you and you love him, let him love you. Let yourself love other BW.

When we choose men who will be good fathers and husbands we promote ourselves. Let's be worthy, and show that to the whole world because, you know what? They are watching us anyway.

Anonymous said...

This is a VERY long read but very well worth it.

Unlinke WM (and other non BM) most BM simply feel they have absolutely NOTHING else to base their manhood/personhood/importance on but sexual myths and this "alpha male" persona. An act that is based on a fantasy (sometimes a "revenge" fantasy) that has NO basis in reality when you look at history and the present time.

I am NOT making excuses for the current self-anhilistic psychological state of many BM. What I am doing by posting the below article, is sharing some background information that has helped create this state of mind.

What you misinterpret as BM "self-confidence" and "self-love" is actually a survival mechanism. Without these powerful/alpha-male fantasies they have, many BM would probably commit mass suicided out of humiliation when one considers their often lowly, embarrassing, and DEPENDENT (which is a stereotypically feminine) position world wide.

And that's why without a doubt the attention must ALWAYS be put on WM who have "done them wrong." Both real and imagined. NEVER EVER EVER on what many of them have failed throughout history - and in the present - to do for THEMSELVES and black women and children.

To put the spotlight on themselves would be too severe a blow to their psychological well-being.

So it is no wonder many BM's lifelong attempt is to appear powerful, strong, and in control. To be the opposite of what most of them actually are in reality.

Appearances of "power". With nothing factual/tangible to back those appearances up.

------------------------------------------

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE BLACK MAN?
By Michael Oluwagbemi II

http://www.nigeriansinamerica.com/articles/1120/1/What-Is-Wrong-With-The-Black-Man/Page1.html

"I for one believe that if you give people a thorough understanding of what confronts them and the basic causes that produce it, they'll create their own program, and when the people create a program, you get action."
Malcolm X.

In recent times I have been pondering over this question (indeed inspired by contributions of certain NVS and NIA contributors)…and have been lost for a single answer. Not as if I think that a single answer exists but try I will still try. Think about it, in every society the black man finds himself, he is at the lowest wrung of the society. Lowest in income, education, and health in America (perhaps the world) and highest in every available negative index: crime, prison stewardship, poverty, HIV etc. It so sad, that even beyond America they are the lords of distant lands that are the epitome of poverty, disease, corruption, and bad government. The black man of the world, is basically a walking laughing joke- a buffoon. We sit over the worlds most mismanaged economy from Caribbean (read Jamaica and Haiti) to Africa (read Nigeria and Zimbabwe) and even Australia (read Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands). Anywhere we find our selves, we have been a disgrace to manhood and a symbol of everything wrong with the human race.


A disgrace to manhood. Thus the need to overcompensate in that department when it comes to appearances.

The black man has lost respect for his person and has such sacrificed respect even amongst his peers. We traded our kinfolks and then whined about slave trade. We submitted sheepishly to the master's orders and complain about a lopsided World Economic Order. While the Indian, Mulatto (Brazilian), Chinese and Russian male freed themselves from global inequality by the power of their brain and brawn, the black man is still held hostage to himself. We have been left behind in the latest wave of world economic development. How then can we stake claim to a thinking mind, as someone recently posited? It is so bad that the few ones respected amongst us have to either go to jail or get shot multiple times. You doubt what I just say? Please think Nelson Mandela, Olusegun Obasanjo, and 50 Cent (Gracing Forbes –white man capitalism – magazine this month). All "ex-jail men" or ex-ER room patients!

A race without leadership is doomed and headed to perdition.


The truth if it were ever said.

The black man has ceded his birthright position of leadership in our communities to no one but our women. We blame it on everything but ourselves. Some say is slavery, some blame feminism and other invincible gibberish. How about ourselves? What role did we play in getting into this quagmire? We have been out-maneuvered, outfoxed, and out-meandered in the global world economic and political order that we have been left with our pants hanging.

Women respect three things in men: knowledge, money, and power.


And yet it is the BW - specifically African-American - who is expected to act unlike ALL other women in creation in this regard and "love" and sacrifice for often ignorant, often poor, angry, and unappreciative powerless BM. In other words be thankless, stupid, self-hating (that's all you can call it when there are intelligent, successful, and powerful men who would love and appreciate you but you instead reject them in favor of those who have the least to offer) mammy mules.

We have lost on those three counts to our women- at least in America – the melting pot of the world. More black women graduate in college than black men...at the last count with a three to one advantage. In addition, this boosts their earning power when they leave school and make them really not need any black man. Who needs a dead beat or a jail bird? We are rotting in prisons across the country while the black woman is expanding in knowledge, seeing the world and really just envisioning us as stud machine! Haba! The only logical reason the black woman will ever go into bed with us this day is for the common good: so that the black race will not become extinct. What have we to offer?

Now THIS is what you call pity sex. Pity "love". Procreation for "the common good". Not out of a true mutual love and respect for your man. Using your womb to "breed blacks" for fear of extinction.

This is a recipe for disaster. Because procreation that is not born out of love and mutual true respect on BOTH sides - the man AND the woman - can only bare confused, hurt, and damaged fruit.

And that's why there is such fear and hatred of the growing number of WM/BW relationships in the black community. These relationships make BM feel inadequate and in essence say to some that BM in essence are basically unnecessary these days.

WM/BW relationships threaten the bejesus out of white society because white society knows that in essence WM are the "puppeteers" since they're in power. What WM give the OK to/seal of approval on is normalized and seen as something to aspire to and/or posses. The powers that be DON'T want that to be BW for obvious reasons.

And that's why of all IR parings the one that will be kept under wraps/disparaged the most will be WM/BW.

In the sphere of money and power, it is so easy to see why we are playing catch up with our women in God's own country: America. America is a leveler many will say- we do not have the advantage of selfishness, oppression, and arrant madness going on in our respective land of origins. Be it Africa, Pacific, or the Americas. In the United States of America, Uncle Sam is the boss and the black women don't have to answer to anyone! Not even you Massa. What is the end result? The richest and most powerful black people in America and perhaps in the world today are women. Ditto, read Oprah Winfrey and Condi Rice: the richest black person in America and Madam Secretary of State respectively. Now you see why I think the lot of the black man is a losing proposition.


What is wrong with the black man? Even in Nigeria, our women are showing us up; they have proven to be better managers and have earned the trust of the general public in their exemplary public service in the current democratic dispensation. Go to the Ministries of Finance, Foreign Affairs, Education, Solid Minerals, Due Process Unit, NAFDAC, Transcorp-NSE and you will see how Nigerian women are cleaning up the mess left by their ignoble men. Of course some of the few capable men have taken the easier route of taking comfort in the ease of life created in foreign lands by other male species of different color. We have become been-to, tokunboh and other terms used for us including hyphenated nationality; people without identity and pride of place. All in exchange for developing our guest homes while our own rot away in total oblivion handed over to men whose only claim to manhood is what dangles between their thighs. We have handed the key of the armory to the enemy and lost the respect of our women. Which kind of man runs away from his trouble?


NO woman - I don't care which "race" she belongs to - can ever truly love a man she has no respect for.

Bad part of course is that many amongst us will not even acknowledge we have a problem. Oh, we blame everyone but ourselves. We blame the system, we blame the hate. Everyone hates the black man we are quick to say. We walk around with victim mentality. Once upon a time it was the white man conspiring against us, now it is so hard to prove that the Indian, Chinese, and Brazilian men were into that conspiracy as well. We now throw the books at our women: we blame them for being assimilated by the destructive ideology called feminisms but we don't see our culpability of leaving them with no option. At least we gave them cause to move to the West when we destroyed our respective homelands; so how can we turn around to blame them for choosing to put their brains where their livelihood is? How many of us are contented with what we have and don't live everyday as if it were our last? We don't invest, or expand our horizon. We splurge money on big this and big that to reflect on our inferiority complex while we make the white man and his peers around the world richer. We are buying drugs and destroying our youths, yet we leave the drug routes and drug business infrastructure to the Mexicans and Columbians. Why? We are the best athletes in the world, yet the white man is getting rich being the NBA commissioner, sports club owners and promoters! Vis-à-vis for music; we loathe ourselves so much and we are locked in a cycle of fratricidal killing- Biggie killed Tupac and Abacha killed Yaradua. From Nigeria where the policeman shoots his fellow citizen men at random to America where the inner city black male is killing his contemporaries in drove, we are killing each other like no tomorrow. We hate each other and have an endemic complex. We buy foreign goods and treat our own with contempt; how else will you explain talking down on Aba while its counterpart in Taipei is frequented by your ilk?

For the progress of the entire black race, positive change is inevitable. Once upon a time, the black man was king. In the time of the black Pharaohs who ruled Egypt and those that sat over the affairs of Nubia, we reigned like men should reign. We lead the world. It has not always been like this – once upon a time we were the custodian of civilization, technology, and good government.It is time to return to Nubia. Hence, we must turn a new leaf and enter a new era. We must take back first the leadership of our homes and be called "real" men instead of the sissy mentality we are currently exhibiting. We must be responsible for our actions and free ourselves from what the Abami Eda called "Colomentality". We must stop blaming others for our actions and see through our own folly. We must go back to school and apply what we learn for the development of our homeland. We must stop the self hate, understand the concept of cooperative domination, and that investing in the future involves making the hard decisions of self effacement and discipline right now. We should not expect the black woman to hand leadership back to us: we must take it back. It is a capitalist world, and you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate and work hard for. We must demonstrate that as black men we deserve the leadership we have abdicated in the past. We can only succeed when we put our best foot forward.

Last Line:

People go to Africa and confirm what they already have in their heads and so they fail to see what is there in front of them. This is what people have come to expect. It's not viewed as a serious continent. It's a place of strange, bizarre, and illogical things, where people don't do what common sense demands.
Chinua Achebe

Anonymous said...

I think this can be more than a call to those BW who promote black men. Those of us who know better are being weighed down by their shouting from roof tops that their is no one better than a bm. WE will suffer when they give R. Kelly excuses by focusing on how experienced a 14 year old may have been before he anally raped her.

That is a mentality in it's own right- and if we focus on changing who they are instead of stepping up our own game, they will win. That ignorance is poison.

But, for those of us who know better- we can do a lot more for our future than complain about them.

Once we start taking practical steps in our lives to be just as hyperactive as other groups in self-protection we have a chance. And, Sangraneth has just made it clear that as bw we are a group unto our own, with our own problems.

I have a suggestion. I want to formulate a sort of underground communal exchange of entertainment through the internet. We have talented people who go to venues that will distrubute their work without having their best interests at heart. This is the same with sexual assaults against black females..we are in a landscape that will look at the male first, and if protecting us hurts him they will seek his best interest. But, this is only one suggeston. what are yours? Dee?

Sangraneth? I ask you as well, because if a partner to a bw happens to be a non-black man with a good load of suggestions in his own right, then this is his fight too.

If we focus exclusively on promoting ourselves, whether that be making sure that black female centered IR's are in the forefront, or making sure that their are thousands of us stomping the yard outside of the schools that 40 yr. old bm lay in wait of- we can make a difference.

Now that we realize that we need a plan, it's time for each of us to start thinking of things on our own. And, then share all our contributions. Pick out OUR OWN strategy. And, go full force with as many numbers as we can get.

Anonymous said...

That information about BM has it's place. But, I'm not sure that place is here. When you have just come chest level with the pool of quick sand you didn't even know you were in..that is the time to worry about how to get up and out of it...not enlighten ourselves with reasoning that would explain why some bm helped throw us in our quicksand. This is personal responsibility time. i'm coming up for air. But, f BM are taking responsibility too, they can do it by taking the focus off themselves, by promoting positive treatment of their mothers and their sisters. People who aren't helping me up, are a hindrance to me getting up. You know what I mean?

Like someone else said here..
"Black men's only hope is for black women to walk away and find men who are truly "masculine." The truth of the matter is that a black man can only continue to create images of himself if he mates with a black woman. So, whatever the prolems are, they will be fixed by making BW acceptable and loved in society.

But, even so..regardless of whether some people can explain their behavior, that is not helping me out. Sangraneth, a white man, is doing more for black MEN than people who spend time explaining while they could be helping my ass out of this quicksand.

I have one goal, we do, and I refuse to be distracted.

Katherine said...

To touch on the self hatred bit. I don't believe that just because a BM or BW dates outside of their race, that they are exhibiting self hatred. I do however, have friends (BW) who choose to date outside of their because they have hangups about their complexion or features and they believe the age old saying "White is Right", this is self hatred. If you want to be with someone, be with them because you love them wholeheartedly, not because you love what they can pass on to your children. Also, IMO, a lot of BW in on these blog sites feel that they have to break black men down in order to affirm their attraction to non-black men. Why? This is another form of self hatred to me and it just shows that these BW still have hangups about the BM, they there aren't with. But I digress. We've all heard the saying about when BM get rich, they get a WW. It's sad, I must say. But, I just keep my fingers cross and hope that he is with his wife, who happens to be white because he loves not because of her skin etc etc. The only time that BM-WW couples irritate me is when you see them togethor and he drops her hand or diverts his eyes. What is wrong with or, how can be with someone if you're embarrassed to be seen with them in public. That irks me, because if you love someone, you love them despite what other people think.
--------------------------------
::sigh:: I am a 20 yo junior in college and I don't have a preference when it comes to men. If you're nice looking, approach me with respect and are doing something with your life. I am not going to turn you down just because of your ethnicity- I don't care what anybody says be it my mother, brothers or the BC in general. I have to look at this man not you so look at the ground for all I care. My mother would like me to marry a BM but she has never said, stand by the BM, society has done him so wrong. I am not going to date down just because someone fills that brown and brown should stay togethor (and I say date down because when I look around my classroom- there are NO BM and the ones that approach me glorify a lifestyle that I grew up in and am horrified by OR that aren't content with being with young BW who is virgin and plans on staying on until she is married.) I'm done. lol. All in all, I just wish people would be with who they wanted because they genuinely love them and for no other reason at all.

Anonymous said...

"where people don't do what common sense demands."

What common sense demands is that both scholars and posters stop making all things black about black men. If the ten or so boys who raped the Haitian woman in Florida were not black, Jesse would have done something about her. That is not the mentality that needs to be brought to this forum.

Miriam said...

Anonymous 10:31 said:

" investing in the future involves making the hard decisions of self effacement and discipline "


Powerful article. Anonymous why do you have to be anonymous? that was so deep.

I converted to Judaism. There is a lot of discipline required for that. Its not easy. When I look around, I can see many other BW who are also converted or born into it. African American BW and West Indian BW, all of them.

But hardly ever do I see BM convert. (I do see Ethiopians who were born into it). Only converted BM -two to be exact, and one was a prince from Swaziland, so I'm thinking his pressure from his position gave him the discipline to live that lifestyle.

For the sake of my brother, cousins, etc. All BM should hear this message.

Selena said...

Another hot post. Luv it!

Anonymous said...

Interesting article.

The only issue, and the most important one which you have evidently overlooked is this: when it comes to racism, because emotions and illogic are the MAIN COMPONENTS IN IT, THERE IS NO LOGICAL SEQUENCE TO THE FEELINGS AND ATTITUDES! <<< the caps are not shouting, just 4 emphasis LOL

You are attempting to 'mathematically' rationalize emotion, illogic and anger.
You cannot, no one can.

Racism is like new love, it runs deep, wild and drives the brain nuts.

Sangraneth said...

"so clever! Once again another quotable quote. Would you mind if I quoted your last phrase?"

Thanks Miriam. Go right ahead.

Sangraneth said...

"You are attempting to 'mathematically' rationalize emotion,"

Actually, I'm not attempting to rationalize emotion, I'm rationalizing the situation. When one is too emotionally close to a problem it is often hard to see the situation for what it is. Sort of like not being able to see the forest for the trees.

That's why I'm trying to get people to view the problem from OUTSIDE of their emotion, so they can see the problem more clearly.

Anonymous said...

katherine @ 11:43 AM said...

Also, IMO, a lot of BW in on these blog sites feel that they have to break black men down in order to affirm their attraction to non-black men. Why? This is another form of self hatred to me and it just shows that these BW still have hangups about the BM, they there aren't with. But I digress.


Break black men down in order to affirm their attraction to non-black men? Exactly what "breaking down" is she referring to? And by who? Lets get specific here.

I've noticed that the majority of the commenters on these various BW/WM IR blogs, who have accused BW of "justifying" (as they usually state it) IR dating by "breaking down" (usually described as unjustifiably criticizing and or hating) BM have been disgruntled BM.

Which doesn't necessarily mean katherine isn't who she claims to be. It's just an observation.

What I do find curious is how she fails to mention the ACTUAL claimed justifications of IR dating that many BM routinely make. Both offline and off.

These racist (bordering on and sometimes clearly misogynist) stereotypical claims are well known and numerous so I'm not going to even bother listing them here.

Again, I do find this omission interesting.

It is politically incorrect to say, but there is nothing that Oluwagbemi II has stated, that has not already been thought by many if not most people.

It's just not to be discussed in polite company.

Just like Cosby has been dissed by some for "airing the black communities dirty laundry".

The truth is, most BW who "date out" AND don't (obviously those in the majority) have made - and continue to make - the exact same observations about BM/BF dynamics. The same observations that Oluwagbemi II, Cosby and others have made about the growing problems facing the black community.

So the statement "Also, IMO, a lot of BW in on these blog sites feel that they have to break black men down in order to affirm their attraction to non-black men" doesn't hold water.

Anonymous said...

Actually, I'm not attempting to rationalize emotion, I'm rationalizing the situation. When one is too emotionally close to a problem it is often hard to see the situation for what it is. Sort of like not being able to see the forest for the trees.


i totally agree that we need to revisit our old assumptions and who better to show us that our reasoning no longer applies than someone standing outside the circle with less emotional investment.

i think all these self hate theories we come up with dont really resonate with the situation with bm anymore.

as you say sangraneth i also believe that bm do not hate themselves as we bw continue to claim, or maybe i should say that they dont give such issues deep thought and any black feature loathing is projected outwards, such that they dont in anyway feel less themselves.

i think women and men experince emotions differently so while bw 'internalise' self loathing, men do not, so when we talk about self loathing it doesnt really strike a chord with bm, who just go on doing what they are doing because for sure they dont hate themselves and actually feel they are Gods gift!

they have become so inflated in their sense of self that they actually feel that all loyalty is due them and they should have the pick of the bunch. they dont give a d$44 wether their actions buy into standards that negatively impact people who look like them, all that is not their concern, all they are here to do is fully enjoy all life has to offer at who so ever's expence.

Anonymous said...

as you say sangraneth i also believe that bm do not hate themselves as we bw continue to claim, or maybe i should say that they don't give such issues deep thought

Exactly. They don't give such issues deep thought because thinking and self-reflection currently is not being encouraged in the black community. At least not in regards to black males. Such behavior is thought of as being white or "inauthentic".

And a population that does not think/self-reflect is ultimately doomed.

and any black feature loathing is projected outwards, such that they dont in anyway feel less themselves.

BY GEORGE you've got it! Any black feature that is loathed is projected OUTWARD. That's why you have such a high rate of BM killing themselves and each other over absolutely nothing.

Consider this quote...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles
/mi_m1077/is_6_56/ai_72502703

"You have young men deliberately putting themselves in harm's way, challenging the police with a gun, knowing that they will be killed," Poussaint says. "Well, that doesn't get recorded as a suicide. The coroner has to record that as a homicide. But behavior like that is a form of killing yourself. It's like saying, `Go ahead shoot me. I'm not worth anything, so I might as well die.'

Or this one...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com
/id/21293963/page/2/

" And there’s no way that you can make that word positive in this, in this culture, in terms of what it meant for black people, their oppression, slavery, lynching. That can never be made positive. And even the people who suggest that it can, say a gangster rapper or the kids in, in the street, say it’s positive and “You’re my brother,” use the word.’ They also use it when they’re shooting and killing each other. They’re calling them that, that same name in a derogatory way."

An outward manifestation of an INWARD self-loathing. And who better to hate than BW? The women who made them black to begin with? If one hates themselves (and for the record all BM clearly do not hate themselves) it goes without saying they will hate those "responsible" for their creation. Those who remind them of themselves.

i think women and men experince emotions differently so while bw 'internalise' self loathing, men do not, so when we talk about self loathing it doesnt really strike a chord with bm, who just go on doing what they are doing because for sure they dont hate themselves and actually feel they are Gods gift!

Women internalize pain, while men act that same pain out. Men can certainly internalize self loathing and act on it. And plenty of BM do.

they have become so inflated in their sense of self that they actually feel that all loyalty is due them and they should have the pick of the bunch. they dont give a d$44 wether their actions buy into standards that negatively impact people who look like them, all that is not their concern, all they are here to do is fully enjoy all life has to offer at who so ever's expence.

The behavior you are describing does not denote self love. On the contrary. What you've described are narcisistic and sociopathic pahtologies. Illnesses.

Those suffering obviously don't know they're sick. PLUS, in the African-American community (which currently has sadomasochistic tendencies anyway) these conditions have been normalized for so long, that at this point in time, it's actually considered something to aspire to by many. To be a narcisitic sociopathic BM is not looked at as a negative by scores of blacks. Even as they suffer from their creations.

THUG CULTURE IS A CANCER DESTROYING BLACK AMERICA

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucas/thugcultureisacan

foreverloyal said...

I think alot of the "white boys are corny/inferior, etc." talk is just bravado.
As my philosophy teacher once said, you can't have an inferior being producing a superior one. And it takes a white father and mother (not counting multiracial people here) to produce a white woman.

Siditty said...

And many black women seem to mistake this philosophy that black= masculine with black=bad. They don't recognize that it with this ideology that it is only black FEMALES that = bad, not black males.

You have so hit the nail on the head with this one. Black women as a whole have not discovered that there are other options. That indeed black women are getting the shaft. I can't count have many single over 35 black women I know still waiting for their black prince to save them, while turning their noses at the option of dating IR. It kills me that successful women would rather be alone to prove their love of blackness to the black community than to find happiness with someone other than black. It is like we must be punished for not being good enough. We must be selfless giving all to the black community, yet get nothing in return but scorn if you try to find true happiness. Black woman are the blame for the whole entire black community.
-------------------

I think black men are doing, they've taken the Mandingo myth and black women's near 100% loyalty and twisted it into some new sick paradigm of black male masculinity, where all that is required is dark skin,a wide nose, and an arrogant attitude to be masculine.

Mona this is so true. Black men are so valued, that woman are chastised for not wanting to date or marry "down". Professional women are expected to get a man freshly released from prison with three kids by three different women to keep their options open (i.e. keep and get a black man). Why are we the only race of women expected to do this? Why are we expected to man share?

-------------------------------
WE will suffer when they give R. Kelly excuses by focusing on how experienced a 14 year old may have been before he anally raped her.

anon @ 11:16

The R. Kelly debacle with the 14 year old showed me exactly how valued black women are in our society. We are so quick to defend a black man, that we will call a 14 year old every derogatory name in the book, and still continue to support and treat him as if he was wrongly accused and that the "man" is trying to bring him down. It doesn't matter how many children he has molested, attempted to marry (Aaliyah), or how much child porn he has on his computer.

Anonymous said...

The black so-called "community" in many ways is conditioning BM to be sadist and BW to be masochist. Almost 24/7. And this abnormality has been normalized in large part.

Most modern black BM/BF relationships/interactions on some level are mired in this sickness and perversion.

Most BW don't exercise the healthy loving options available to them with REAL men but instead choose to exercise their options to suffer with those frontin as men. Those who don't have a clue as to what the term entails.

Because they've been conditioned to be pain freaks. Without drama and suffering a lot of BW actually feel uncomfortable.

Because most aren't used to peace. Aren't used to love minus the pain.

Evia said...

I think that many bm adore/idolize/imitate/have reverence for wm and do everything they can to imitate wm, which includes wanting to have a woman who looks as much as possible like the woman that he thinks wm prefer. This is why most bm become much more interested in any bw after they find out she has a white husband or boyfriend. She becomes more desirable to them. I experience this all of the time.

I am convinced that most bm do believe that white people (men and women) are supreme/superior and thus many wealthy or successful bm consider a ww to be a part of the reward for having achieved.

Many bm feel that a ww raises their status to that of almost a wm. A bm definitely feels whiter when he has a ww in his life. He feels he has moved "up" in life.

Many bm who have "arrived" or have achieved on a high level thus feel they have "earned" a ww. Many of these bm are actually "whiter" in their thinking than many white men.

My lone bm friend says that a ww is one of the greatest incentives to bm achievement. He said this is one of the reasons they even want to achieve these days--in order to get a ww and get as close to being a wm as possible--to see whiteness all around them, to sex white, to see a ww as the last sight before he sleeps and the first sight when he wakes up, to socialize with whites, to have white in-laws, to have whiter children, to hear white people talking around him, to gaze at them, to escape blackness as much as possible. He said that some of these men begin to even believe after a while that they are white since this is all they see that is important to them.

If every bm could be GUARANTEED a white woman upon graduation from college, I believe the high school and college graduation rates would SOAR. And I'm NOT joking.

If the bm is rich and influential enough, no white person ever reminds him that he's not white. If any person pretends something long enough, and has no one to remind them otherwise, s/he will believe themselves to be what they pretend to be. For ex. after wearing blue contact lens for several years, a bw I used to work with actually believed her brown eyes were blue. She started talking about how she had inherited her blue eyes from her white grandfather. LOL!

All of the bashing that so many bm do about de evil wm is based on anger and jealousy of the wm's power and their craving to be white men. Many bm would do just about anything to get inside of the wm's old-boy-network or inner circle and be accepted as a white man (Clarence Thomas). If this ever were to ever start happening on a large scale, most black people would be in a lot of trouble because many of these black men would be worse than the worst white racists in their treatment of other black people. Just look at Clarence.

tasha said...

Sangraneth, you have razor-sharp precision, as usual. And the racio-misogyny that we as women experience is now a justification called "common everyday hatred?" I swear, that is a double standard, shown at its finest.

Sangraneth said...

" I think that many bm adore/idolize/imitate/have reverence for wm and do everything they can to imitate wm, which includes wanting to have a woman who looks as much as possible like the woman that he thinks wm prefer. "


I think you're cofusing resentment and jealosy with adoration and reverence. For example, just because one person might want what another person has, doesn't mean that the person idolizes or reveres that person.

For example, say a person I know whom I don't like wins the lottery. I might be jeaolous of them or want what they have. That doesn't mean I want to BE them. That doesn't mean I like, adore, or even respect them.

There are some people in real life who have things that I would like to have. Paris Hilton is rich. I would LOVE to have her money. Yet I certainly don't adore her, don't like her, and certainly don't think she's better than me simply because she has more than me.

Likewise, one cannot assume that just because a black man might want what white men have that the black man likes, adores, or even respects white men. Generally speaking, when we see someone whom we perceive as having positive qualities, we LIKE them and revere them; not envy them and resent them. When we like or revere someone we tend to model ourselves after them. Yet most BM I see involved in IR and who lash out at BW tend to model themselves after 50 cent more than Bill Gates.

Evia said...

Likewise, one cannot assume that just because a black man might want what white men have that the black man likes, adores, or even respects white men. Generally speaking, when we see someone whom we perceive as having positive qualities, we LIKE them and revere them; not envy them and resent them. When we like or revere someone we tend to model ourselves after them. Yet most BM I see involved in IR and who lash out at BW tend to model themselves after 50 cent more than Bill Gates.

You're interpreting bm's behavior in a logical way, but their behavior defies logic. This thing is really twisted. Trust me. Bm do not like themselves much at all, nor do they admire other bm. This is why bm are very dangerous to each other and don't work together to do things to help themselves. You're being misled by their bravado--that swagger, that "cool" front. That is just a facade.

They don't model themselves after Bill Gates because they don't think they can. They believe that de evil wm will block them because they see wm as being all-powerful, almost godlike. That's why they take the 'sour grapes' route and choose to act like Fiddy. No one who has anything going for them would "choose" Fiddy over Bill.

No woman with good self esteem would be interested in a Fiddy-- maybe his money, but not him because Fiddies don't live long and she could be caught in the crossfire.

Katherine said...

To anon @ 7:44.

I am indeed, a BW- if not I'll have to have a serious chat with my mother. Anyway, maybe it was my fault for only saying, "BW on blog sites.", but I have read comments where BW (or those claiming to be) have said, Oh BM are all about the hood and video girls- I can't deal those ghetto hoodlums. or bm are very emotionally abusive. or they date ww for their pale skin so why can't I. etc etc, so on and so forth. My thing is 1. you can't make a sweeping comment about an entire race or gender just because of a bad experience that you had. 2. you should never date outside your race to PROVE something. once again I say do it because you have feelings for that person and for no other reason at all. I love how you took one part of my comment and said it didn't hold water. Have you ever the comment let love rule, that is what I was saying, let love rule and nothing else.
p.s. what is with some anonymous commenters only pointing out things they view as negative?

Anonymous said...

"Yet most BM I see involved in IR and who lash out at BW tend to model themselves after 50 cent more than Bill Gates."

Sangraneth, are you my age? Lol. Or, do you just happen to live in a very contemporary climate? I definitely see what Evia's talking about, and I definitely was ecstatic to see that you understood what was going on as well.

But, BOTH examples are happening. The existence of a very modernized climate (black guys are cool, white guys are dorks) suggests that there would be generational differences in how bm see themselves. I think the examples that mesh with Evia's experiences are mostly centered in older (40 above) and academic circles..lawyers etc.

But, it also depends on location. If they grew up in places where the cool black guy was actually a bufoon, a joke (acadamia, and high schools like the one I attended- rich town CA), then their image was instead scorned by their immediate community (no black women available to ride their coat tales and build their egos). They will likely scorn the hyper- cool black male stereotypes which they would have otherwise embraced. Look at a considerable number of black male teenagers growing up in bev. hills today, and see if they have one or any black male role models, posters, or even interests.

There is the same sort of hyper proud ww loving bm who also loves black men, and these happen to be attached to "urban popular black culture" (which is misogyny against black women to it's fullest). These types have a reason to be proud of themselves, as the examples you provided in your post suggest.

I don't think the existence of one negates the other. Cause I'm pretty much nodding my head to both examples...literally.

I've seen them up close, varying ages for both grops too. So, I think generation and environment play roles here. In other words, if those media examples and praise from black females that you detailed were absent for them, then the opposite of your conclusions is likely happening.
(Both Clarence and Dennis Rodman still, to this day, complain about how black girls called them ugly. Neither one emerged from environments where their was some positive association with "black male." And, neither of them spends their time associating with black males)

If they live in areas or come from personal histories where those examples are nothing but a joke to them..then they will idolize who they would rather be. Clarence Thomas is not as uncommon as you may think. I'm sure other blacks besides myself could rattle off some names, right now, without much effort. I'm not joking, these are men who would step over another black person lying in the street (male or female) to pick up a white man's coat. It's not pretty, or simple, but it's true.

As for why white women in particular, and why black women will be scorned by both affirmed black males and the type that Eiva mentioned- I think your post and many things said here covered that well (esp. sexism in black culture, women hating women in black culture, sex abuse and shame, and the society's low market value for a black woman).

To put it in perspective, this is really about a bunch of men defining themselves by their particular society/ environmental conditioning, and not being free thinkers or brave people. Not attractive. That whole "Achebe article" claim that women want knowledge, power, and a man who is respected..That was just another example of a man taking hold of societal conditioning as the truth. Achebe is not a free thinker.

What most women want is appreciation, protection, affection, loyalty, and security. There's not a woman in this world who wouldn't honor a hated man who sacrificed his life to powerful men just to be able to protect her image and her life.

Achebe, to me, is the prototype waiting to be explained. Not, the philosopher.

Anonymous said...

"Likewise, one cannot assume that just because a black man might want what white men have that the black man likes, adores, or even respects white men.

Generally speaking, when we see someone whom we perceive as having positive qualities, we LIKE them and revere them; not envy them and resent them."

Most undeniably black (those totally unmixed in appearance) BM can NEVER actually like - or even appear to like - white men though they most certainly revere them and envy them as Evia correctly stated. Why? Because their envy and and jealousy won't allow it. They can NEVER - regardless of what they do unlike other groups (I'll get into this later) - actually BE WM (OR have honorary white status). And this does create a rage, jealousy, and envy within them. Which prevents most BM from ever genuinely liking WM.

Asians, ambiguous looking Hispanics,(read non-black appearanced) Arabs, East Asian Indians, and other non BM are OFTEN friends with WM. Have no qualms in stating it, and the feeling is mutual. There's a feeling of "balance" and equality amongst these populations and white society. Because many if not most non-black minorities feel that they have much more in common with Whites than Blacks. And deep down share many of the same views as your average Klansman. There is a specific historical (and often present) inequality that exist between blacks - specifically African-Americans - and whites.

BM every day see other non-white minorities being "allowed into the club" to some degree but not HIM. These other "people of color" being thought of as better than HIM. We must never forget that the modern BM thinks ONLY of HIMself. And how HE can so called "make it" and fit in. He doesn't give a f*ck about BW and the children he produces with her. Nor does he care about the long range consequences for "the black race" of a me myself and I mentality.

So, the only way a BM CAN vicariously experience a little bit of whiteness (partially at least) is through his biracial children and possibly grandchildren. Through his PROGENY. And if that's your basic motivator, than it doesn't matter what the WW looks like. Her appearance, size, personality, morals, hygiene, age (but she ideally should be of childbearing age), etc.. are of NO consequence what so ever. ALL that matters in the end is that she IS white. Because after all she is just a means to an end.

It's WHITE GENES that self-hating BM crave so that they can father children that will hopefully look less like themselves. Like Evia said, some BM don't want ANY reminders (if they can help it) of themselves. Because deep down they feel inferior.

Basically, the ONLY way they can get those "exalted and transforming" genes is through WW.

Are ALL BM/WW relationships based on this? NO. BUT, many indeed are.

And NONE of this is a reflection of self-love on the part of BM.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 7:44 here.

"My thing is 1. you can't make a sweeping comment about an entire race or gender just because of a bad experience that you had. 2. you should never date outside your race to PROVE something. once again I say do it because you have feelings for that person and for no other reason at all."

AGREE 100% As would any rational person. I certainly hope you're taking the time out to give the exact same advice on the numerous BM/WF boards out there.

For fairness.

Anonymous said...

They don't model themselves after Bill Gates because they don't think they can. They believe that de evil wm will block them because they see wm as being all-powerful, almost godlike. That's why they take the 'sour grapes' route and choose to act like Fiddy. No one who has anything going for them would "choose" Fiddy over Bill.

And not only that. Most don't think they have the intelligence - the brains - to be a Bill Gates. What many BM definitely don't have is patience and the ability to delay instant gratification. Hell, most young ones (in the inner city anyway) don't think they're going to live past 35 anyway, so they don't really "try" to do much of anything.

And then you have so many fantasizing that they're going to be professional basket ball players and rappers.SMH

Again, occupations that do not require a lick of higher brain functioning.

BUT, these occupations can pay well.

So many young BM foolishly model themselves only after thugs (drug dealers/criminals), rappers, athletes, etc. because it appears in their minds that these jobs "threaten the system", and it does not require years of hard work, dedication, and delayed gratification before a reward (money and or fame) is received.

-Avid Reader said...

If Anon at 5:38 am and Evia's description is correct, the motivation for IR dating by some BM is not conspiratorial at all. Instead it's simply a way to place themselves somewhere in the current scheme of things. To "get in" where they can. Globally speaking, they know that blacks/dark-skinned people are at the bottom of the current hierarchy. Yet, they don't have the will, interest, or bravery necessary to challenging the status quo and try to change it, and make it more equitable for everyone.

So... their "liberation" is in the hope that they can whiten/lighten their seed. So that their children will hopefully have an easier way to go considering the current set up.

The whole "if you can't beat them join them" argument.

Some would call it opportunistic selling out.

Siditty said...

"For ex. after wearing blue contact lens for several years, a bw I used to work with actually believed her brown eyes were blue. She started talking about how she had inherited her blue eyes from her white grandfather."

This is so off topic. I grew up with some kids that lived close by who all three kids were fairly dark skinned black kids, but they really had blue eyes!!!! I hope their momma didn't put contacts in their eyes. Their mother had brown eyes, their father had the blue eyes. I guess the recessive genes were there to make that happen. I just remember the little boy had one blue eye and one eye that was half brown/half blue. I imagine quite often they had to explain their eye color to people. That is the only time in real life I have seen it, but there are pictures circulating on the web showing this little baby with blue eyes.

http://terrygreen.smugmug.com/gallery/1280988#62728164

Miriam said...

how about a middle ground?

The argument seems to be that one side thinks BM have great self-love while the other side thinks BM have great self-hate.

Maybe, its both. Just an exaggeration of one or the other -depending on the individual- trying to combat an unfair, kinda hostile environment?

Evia said...

This is so off topic. I grew up with some kids that lived close by who all three kids were fairly dark skinned black kids, but they really had blue eyes!!!!

This is true. Some so-called "black" people do have blue and green eyes because there is no such thing as "black" or "white" people. We're all simply a mixture of dominant and recessive genes for all of these traits.

In the case of this woman, she was actually fascinating to me because we all had known her for years with brown eyes. I think she thought we had forgotten that her natural eyes were brown.

Anyway, if a "black" person wants blue eyes and can buy them, I'm not going to sit in judgment on them because it's really too late in the game for that. If a ww is the missing link for a bm, I don't really care because it's also too late for stressing over that. The thing that bothers me most is that so many bw don't realize how late it is.
Bw need to focus on finding the most loving, loveable, suitable and compatible man PERIOD by looking at ALL the men in the global village, and all of these discussions about what is or ain't right about bm are just moving more and more bw closer to extinction.

Any man who does not see a woman's value should become an afterthought to that woman and she should shift her focus totally to men who do BECAUSE If you do not reproduce, you as an individual are becoming extinct. Just look at Oprah and Condi, and just like them, so many higher achieving bw (the so-called talented tenth?) are quickly becoming extinct.

Sangraneth said...

"You're interpreting bm's behavior in a logical way, but their behavior defies logic."

Well we can really only theorize about their behavior seeing as neither one of us are a black male who dating a white woman. We can com up with behavioural theories that are consistent with their behavior. And while it can be said that their are some black men in IR with white women who could be described as corporate, there are also some who could be descirbed as "thugs".

In regards to the "corporate" men, one can only assume that they want to be white. It's also quite possible that they want to go to school, get a good job, and have nice stuff. Isn't that white BW usually get degrees? Wanting nice stuff doesn't necessarily mean wanting to be white. And while it is possible that the idiology of white supremacy is what COULD explain this behavior, the ideology of black=masculine, white=feminine could as well. After all, wanting to have a good job does not negate a man's belief that he is more masculine.

When we discuss the "thug" types though, the black=masculine white=feminine ideology still is consistent with the behavior, but the white supremacy thoery no longer holds water. You still believe that it is relavent even though it doesn't explain their behavior, and think that they're "irrational" so it doesn't have to fit.

The problem with this is that you are trying to use a model of behavior and applying it to a pattern of behavior that doesn't match. This is an illogical stance. And by justifying this stance with the assumption that the men in quesiton are irrational, you are in fact projecting the irrationallity of the conclusion onto the black men in question.

For example, you claim they are acting on the ideology of white supremacy. Now based on the assumption that black men are behaving irrationally, I could just as easily use the idiology of black supremacy or even ASIAN SUPREMACY to explain their actions and motives. Does Asian supremacy explain their behavior? No. Does the theory make sense when applied to the situation? No. Is there any basis in reality for this theory? No. But if we're assuming that black men are behaving irrational THE THEORY DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE.

The problem with just assuming that someone is irrational is that ANY behavioral theory can be applied to the situation without having to make one ounce of sense.

That is why I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I only come to the conclusion that they are behaving irrationally if no line of rationallity can be determined to exist. And in the situation of black men dating interracially, the ideology of black=masculine and white=feminine provides a clear line of rationality for their behavior.

Yan said...

I know I've participated in this also, but I am starting to wonder why we spend so much time talking and thinking about black men.

Most of us, if not all of us, agree that the majority of black men, for whatever reason, are not capable of being suitable partners or were never interested in black men to begin with. So why do we devote so much mental energy to thinking and talking about what they do, who they do it with, and why they do it?

I understand venting but the misconception about venting is that it's beneficial. It just leads to more stewing and negative thinking. It does not lead to moving on.

We don't know why any particular bm/wm couple are together. And certainly any theory that we have proposed here can and has been applied to bw dating out.

Also, notice that we never hear wm commenting about everything they hate about white women. It's always bothered me that a lot of black men cannot profess their preference for white or other race women without dragging the reputation of black women through the mud. I don't want to engage in that behavior. I don't hate black men. I don't think they are "the enemy". I appreciate the intent of the comments/posts but focusing on them does not help us get our s together, excuse my English. IMHO.

Felicia said...

Evia said...

"Any man who does not see a woman's value should become an afterthought to that woman and she should shift her focus totally to men who do BECAUSE If you do not reproduce, you as an individual are becoming extinct."

Sensible women possessing high self-esteem regardless of "race" already know this to be the case. Unfortunately many if not most BW - at least African-American - are raised seemingly from birth to think and behave irrationally. As are BM. Many of whom are conditioned (due to constant positive reinforcement from those around them for inappropriate and negative behavior) to self-destruct.

BW specifically are raised to work against their best self interests - against Mother Nature even - in favor of the collective. The black "communities" self-interest. Which always will be considered "higher" and of more "importance" than her own.

It's a kind of slavery of the mind and heart.

These BW/WM blogs/websites attempt to break those chains of irrational thought that are keeping BW bound and captive to outdated unsuccessful philosophies and behaviors that are keeping them alone, frustrated, unpartnered, unhappy and bitter.

The truth is, BW's happiness - and future - is actually in their OWN hands.

These BW/WM blogs are simply providing the key to the open the door to wonderful possibilities.

Hopefully, more and more BW are acting on this life saving information. I pray this is happening for their own sake.

Evia said...

Okay, Sangraneth.

I'd rather focus on bw and I was happy to hear today from my pal who operates the dating events company that LOTS of bw are now coming to her events to meet men from the global village who are interested in long-term committed relationships. That's such GOOD news!

More and more sistas are just tired of being miserable and they're waking up and realizing that it's a CHOICE to be miserable when they could instead choose to be loved and appreciated. So there's a steady increase in sistas choosing the latter.

Hallelujah!!!
I'm just feeling overjoyed right now and don't feel like debating. LOL!!

Sangraneth said...

"but I am starting to wonder why we spend so much time talking and thinking about black men. "

I agree. I merely used them as an example of inter-racial dating not being about self-hatred. I was hoping it would provoke others to think in terms of their own best interests. I didn't think BM would become the focus of the discussion.

Black Velveteen said...

"And with this in mind it seems quite obvious to me the one thing that black men and black women have most in common. Black men and black women both love black men."

Not true for all of us. In fact, if you are not a BM in my family, I have no use for you. It's that simple and it's always been that way. I love black women (I am one) and am unapologetic about it. I put BW's interests first and always have. I don't know why your statement offended me, Sangraneth. Maybe it's because I feel as though I'm being painted with the same brush the majority of black women are painted with when in my case, it isn't true.

Yan: I agree with everything you said above. I'm sick and tired of giving them any thought whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

I merely used them as an example of inter-racial dating not being about self-hatred. I was hoping it would provoke others to think in terms of their own best interests. I didn't think BM would become the focus of the discussion.

Some inter-racial dating is obviously about self-hatred, and some is obviously not.

For instance, If one is capable of loving a woman (or man) belonging to the so called "opposite" race, yet at the SAME time harbors intense unjustified and unprovoked often stereotypically based hatred in their heart for women (or men) belonging to their own group, that is a CLEAR sign of sickness. A CLEAR sign of self-hatred.

And this is true whether you're talking about BM, BW, WM, WW, Asians, Hispanics, and any other "race"/ethnicity.

It's across the board.


More and more sistas are just tired of being miserable and they're waking up and realizing that it's a CHOICE to be miserable when they could instead choose to be loved and appreciated. So there's a steady increase in sistas choosing the latter.

THANK HEAVENS more and more BW are finally waking up. Finally seeing the light. What a blessing this is for them and their future children.

Sandra said...

Evia, what is the web address of the site of your friend who runs a dating events company? Where is it located? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

"For instance, If one is capable of loving a woman (or man) belonging to the so called "opposite" race, yet at the SAME time harbors intense unjustified and unprovoked often stereotypically based hatred in their heart for women (or men) belonging to their own group, that is a CLEAR sign of sickness. A CLEAR sign of self-hatred."

Yes. It's clear from some of these comments that many of the women that frequent these blogs suffer from self-hatred.

Are some of these negative experiences with black men class issues? The black men I grew up around and interact with now are normal, responsible, taxpaying adults. I'm not running from black men or blackness; I just find people from all racial groups and nationalities interesting.

Lynette

Anonymous said...

Sang dont let anyone put you off your deep analysis.

How can we talk about IR without bringing up bm at some point, its impossible! Bm will have to feature in the discussion one way or another, and to say we wont talk about them at all is cutting out a key element of the whole IR debate. if you dont speak plainly about bm, ww, wm, bw, how are we suppose to get a deeper understanding, which is what i think you are trying to do.

If you become afriad of mentioning them at all you will censore yourself and water down the brilliant essays you are coming up with. And thats what many (even some bw) want you to do, to water down your analysis.

Dont fall for it!

Sangraneth said...

"For instance, If one is capable of loving a woman (or man) belonging to the so called "opposite" race, yet at the SAME time harbors intense unjustified and unprovoked often stereotypically based hatred in their heart for women (or men) belonging to their own group, that is a CLEAR sign of sickness. A CLEAR sign of self-hatred."

It may be a sign of sickness and/or hatred, but technically speaking it is not SELF-hatred.

Sangraneth said...

" Maybe it's because I feel as though I'm being painted with the same brush the majority of black women are painted with when in my case, it isn't true.

Velveteen, the statement was simply an observation of the majority of black women that seem to display an unending supply of unconditional love and loyalty to black men. Clearly you are not one of the majority.

I didn't intend to imply that all black women feel this way. I often make similar observations regarding white men. I recently stated in C1's blog that white men tend to mindlessly pursue "the prize" (white blonde women). Clearly I don't consider myself one of these men because I don't do that. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anonymous said...

"It may be a sign of sickness and/or hatred, but technically speaking it is not SELF-hatred."

BLACK SELF-HATRED

http://www.answers.com/topic/self-hatred?cat=health

As with Jewish self-hate, there is some disagreement as to what it means to be Black. Some Black people feel that those who demonstrate a preference for clothing styles, music choices, etc. that have been predominantly associated with white culture are self-hating. Thus for them being Black is more just one’s skin color.

Some, such as journalist John Carlson, have suggested that gangsta rap is a form of Black Self-hatred. In his view, when Black rappers portray Black women as "bitches" and "hos" and Black men as "worthy of respect only in relation to their capacity to kill or maim others," or their virility and sexual prowess, THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY EXPRESSING A FORM OF SELF-HATE WITH BASICALLY BUYING INTO AND PROPAGATING, THROUGH THEIR MUSIC, RACIST STEREOTYPES ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE.

As in other ethnic groups, self-loathing can show itself in the form of embarrassment or shame in those things that are culturally identified with the group. Such feelings are ingrained in subtle ways from childhood. Some black people may become reluctant to share or perpetuate activities or traditions that have in the past caused them anxiety. They may come to hate those things and, by extension, themselves. Other manifestations of black self-loathing are the use of preparations or pharmaceuticals to lighten the skin, hair straigtening, rhinoplasty or other cosmetic surgery to affect a more Caucasoid appearance.

Another variation of Black self-hatred is the issue of colorism, which refers to the intracultural conflict between light-skinned (and sometimes straight-haired) Black people and dark-skinned Black people. This is attributed to the effects of slavery and segregation, as light-skinned blacks often were treated considerably better by whites, or by white society in general, than their dark-skinned brethren. Such race-based color preferences continue to be present in both black and white society and extend to other ethnic groups, as well. Skin color biases which disadvantage and discriminate against darker-skinned people are evident internationally, including in India, throughout Latin America, Africa and China. Typically, such biases against dark skin and other non-white physical characteristics spring from complex historical social differences, COMPOUNDED BY THE INTERNALIZATION OF WHITE SUPREMACIST VALUES eventually spread by European colonization and domination.

Sangraneth said...

" In his view, when Black rappers portray Black women as "bitches" and "hos" and Black men as "worthy of respect only in relation to their capacity to kill or maim others," or their virility and sexual prowess, THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY EXPRESSING A FORM OF SELF-HATE "

I realize that there are many articles and many "scholars" stating that it is self hate. Just because it is popularly believed to be self-hate does not make it self-hate. For example, many centuries ago it was popularly believed that the world was flat. In fact, it was considered common knowledge. But no matter how many scholars proclaimed that the world was flat, the fact is that the world has always been round.

As I stated in my post, when a man displays hatred towards women, it is not self-hate because the man is not part of the group he is expressing hatred for. Likewise, if a black man expresses hatred for black women, although it is hatred, it is not self-hatred.

Now, if you want to apply a specific name to it to identify exactly what form of hatred it is, I believe I heard the term racio-mysogeny. While a term such as this is accurate because it is racially based hatred towards women, self-hatred is not because a man who hates women is not including himself in his hatred.

Black Velveteen said...

Sangraneth said:
"Velveteen, the statement was simply an observation of the majority of black women that seem to display an unending supply of unconditional love and loyalty to black men. Clearly you are not one of the majority.

I didn't intend to imply that all black women feel this way. I often make similar observations regarding white men. I recently stated in C1's blog that white men tend to mindlessly pursue "the prize" (white blonde women). Clearly I don't consider myself one of these men because I don't do that. Sorry for the misunderstanding."

Ok, Get where you are coming from now. Thank you for clarifying.
The following commentary is not directed to you, Sangraneth. It's just my statement on self hatred.

As for self hatred, I definitely DO NOT hate myself but, I am not attracted to black men, never have been and I refuse to let anyone tell me that it's self hatred. If I hated myself, I would hate other black women and that is not the case. I would hate the men in my family and that is NOT the case. I was raised in an upper middle class family, in the 80's. This includes my extended family. There was a code of conduct within my family. The black men I encountered outside of that were nothing like my family members. They weren't responsible, law abiding, tax paying citizens. They were derelict losers. Even the upper middle class black men I met were nothing like the men in my family. They had the "wealthier" upbringing but they had no morals, no character and no personality. Most upper middle class black men are one of two ways: they are total old money snobs and dogs or they are "nouveau riche", one generation from the ghetto snobs and dogs. No time for it, either way. Others can call it whatever they want but, black men have never been my preference and will never be my preference. I don't hate them and will/have never make/made excuses for them, I just don't want them in my sphere and there's not a damn thing wrong with that.

*stepping off of the soapbox*

Anonymous said...

"I realize that there are many articles and many "scholars" stating that it is self hate. Just because it is popularly believed to be self-hate does not make it self-hate."

And just because someone does not believe psychologists and scholars (some of whom are black males themselves and who therefore naturally have a more intimate knowledge of what motivates BM behavior than someone who is not a black man) who have often come to their conclusions based on years of research and in-depth psychological interviews, doesn't make it not self-hate in certain cases.

The fact is blanket statements can't be made one way or another regarding this issue.

Sometimes IR dating/marriage IS based on self-hate. And sometimes it is NOT.

Every situation and couple is different.

We can all agree that hatred itself of ANY kind - especially when unjustified - is a negative emotion.

And one does have to question the ability of a person - a black male or otherwise - who harbors intense hatred for ANYONE based on their gender and/or race to truly have the ability to love anyone.

Including themselves.

Intense hatred and love can't coexist. One eventually wins out.


"As I stated in my post, when a man displays hatred towards women, it is not self-hate because the man is not part of the group he is expressing hatred for. Likewise, if a black man expresses hatred for black women, although it is hatred, it is not self-hatred."

Psychologically and emotionally speaking men are forever linked to women. And men have a HIGHER feeling of "linkage" with women from their SAME "race" than those from outside the group. This is true whether men are in INTRAracial relationships (same "race") OR INTERracial relationships. Men still have this ingroup/outgroup mentality that is an evolutionary left over.

That's why you have plenty of hypocritical BM and WM - and I imagine men belonging to other "races" - who may be interracially involved themselves yet STILL have a sense of ownership towards women in their racial group.

STILL try to prevent "their women" from being involved interracially.

A feeling that doesn't make logical sense but is there none the less.

If men (including BM) truly viewed women as "not apart of their group" based on gender, this wouldn't be the case.

Plenty of women have stories to tell concerning this issue. Especially BW. This is REAL.

That's why I KNOW that men don't simply view women as apart from themselves. "As members of a different group". They feel a DEFINITE link.

And that's why it's not a stretch at all for a man (or woman) who dislikes or hates something about himself (or herself) to hate a reminder of it in a woman (or man) belonging to the same "race".

To displace their self-hatred on to women (or men) of the same "race".

Again, and interracial relationship does not have to necessarily signify self-hate on the part of the minority partner.(Or white one for that matter)

It may, and it may not.

Sangraneth said...

"And just because someone does not believe psychologists and scholars (some of whom are black males themselves and who therefore naturally have a more intimate knowledge of what motivates BM behavior than someone who is not a black man) who have often come to their conclusions based on years of research and in-depth psychological interviews, doesn't make it not self-hate in certain cases."

You're right. That doesn't mean that it's not self-hate. The fact that they are expressing hatred for a group that does not include them means that it's not self-hate.

It seems that the root cause of our disagreement is the term SELF.


"Sometimes IR dating/marriage IS based on self-hate. And sometimes it is NOT."

I'm referring to the black men who express hatred for black women, such as the rappers in the article you posted. It is an expression of hatred, or could even be called racio-mysogeny, or something to that effect, but self-hatred it is not.


"Intense hatred and love can't coexist."


I agree totally. And like I said in my post, it is human nature to look out for and protect the best interests of those we love. The black men who express hatred for black women are clearly looking out for THEIR OWN best interest. Therefore, the object of their love is themselves. And as you stated, we cannot both love ourselves AND hate ourselves.

Anonymous said...

I'm referring to the black men who express hatred for black women, such as the rappers in the article you posted. It is an expression of hatred, or could even be called racio-mysogny, or something to that effect, but self-hatred it is not.

Self-hatred (I don't deny racio-misogny doesn't also play a part) it most certainly is. Because when you hate others you actually degrade yourself in the process. Self degradation and self-love do not go together. Hatred of any kind, carried to it's logical extreme leads one to behave at an animals level. Less then that even.

It leads to the abuse of others and yourself. It can even lead to murder and suicide.

One only has to look at the pathologies affecting growing numbers of black men (and large segments of the black community) to see that self-love is not in abundance.


"Intense hatred and love can't coexist."

I agree totally. And like I said in my post, it is human nature to look out for and protect the best interests of those we love.

It is not necessary to unjustifiably hate others in order to look out for and protect ones best interest.

The black men who express hatred for black women are clearly looking out for THEIR OWN best interest.

Again, black men don't have to hate black women in order to look out for their own best interests.

How is it that white men, Asian men, Indian men, African men, etc... are able to look out for their own best interests without hating women of their race?

Why is it only the African-American (and other black men who've been enslaved) man who feels he has to "look out for their own best interests" by unjustifiably hating women of their group? Women who are their mothers, sisters, and daughters?


Therefore, the object of their love is themselves. And as you stated, we cannot both love ourselves AND hate ourselves.

Therefore, those black men who unjustifiably hate black women for no other reason then they are black women have deeper and more disturbing issues.

And since one can't degrade themselves (by the act of unjustifiably hating others) AND love oneself at the same time, the only explanation is there are scores of BM suffering from self-hatred.

Sangraneth said...

" Because when you hate others you actually degrade yourself in the process. "

Well, that may be true. But if that is your definition of self-hatred then that means ALL hatred is self-hatred, and therefore the term "self-hatred" carries no weight or meaning.


"It is not necessary to unjustifiably hate others in order to look out for and protect ones best interest."

I never said that it was. In fact I wholeheartedly agree with you. You do not need to hate others in order to love yourself. Self-love generally speaking is a good thing. It's only when self-love gets out of control that it turns into selfishness, vanity, and arrogence. When we love ourselves so much that we don't care how much we hurt others in order to get what we want it is no longer a good thing.

This seems to me to be what is happening in the case of black men who degrade black women. They are "getting in where they fit in" as others would say it. The racio-mysogynistic rappers are selling images to the world of themselves as hyper-masculine and sexy (self-benefitting) while degrading black women. Therefore they are indulging in self-love to the point of selfishness, vanity, and arrogance at the expense of black women. In other words they are loving themselves while hating others.


"How is it that white men, Asian men, Indian men, African men, etc... are able to look out for their own best interests without hating women of their race?"

Well, there very well might be some men in all races who do this. But the media seems to be perpetrating the ideology that black = masculine and white = feminine (as discussed in my first post). If the black men who are disrespecting black women subscribe to this ideology (as they seem to be doing) then they are doing so because they BELEIVE that they are better than black women.

This ideology that seems prevalent in the media also explains why you do not see this behavior in some other races. In fact, it seems the opposite is true at times. I've heard white women say some pretty bad things about white guys.

And I want to point this out in case there is any doubt. Just because I am using this ideology as an explanation of the behavior displayed by some people doesn't mean I am using it as an excuse. Nor do I promote this ideology. But I think we are doing ourselves a disservice if we act as if it doesn't exist.

Halima said...

i totally agree with you sangraneth, we need to come out of looking at what bm do as self-hate because the primary target of this hate isnt themselves.

in some convulated way, their actions might be attributed to self-loathing, but they experince this 'loathing' by attacking black women ie outside themselves, so we can do away with the concept of self-hate altogether.

when we say self-hate we actually generate pity for these types of men, when this is exactly what we should not/do not want to do!

i think the 'orthodoxies' need to be challenged on this one, and bw need to make attempts to put together their own ideology and stop riding on established views which might not have taken their unique situation into consideration.

good work!

E-Book

Anonymous said...

" Because when you hate others you actually degrade yourself in the process. "

Well, that may be true. But if that is your definition of self-hatred then that means ALL hatred is self-hatred, and therefore the term "self-hatred" carries no weight or meaning.

Hatred of others in general does have an inferiority complex involved. Habitually Needing to overcompensate for actually fearing one is less than.

Just look at two of the most well known butchers in history. Hitler and Idi Amin. Both had inferiority complexes (Hitler being of partial Jewish ancestry himself always carried shame about this "embarrassment" and in killing the Jews was also killing the part of himself that he despised) that were projected outwards.

http://dureve.com/du%20Reve/Recent%20works/DEE1CF38-C2A5-49AB-83A7-EA4DE1AF6E21.html

"The hatred of Jews may be linked to desiring to discharge animosity against the rich but not to be identified with the manual workers. This group finds the Jew of this time period as a fitting scapegoat for a common hatred. Moreover, the intellectually superior and commercially successful Jew serves as the sacrificial ram to compensate the guilt from the temptations of war, unemployment, and undernourishment."

And Idi Amin...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/film/idi-amin-as-monster-cruel-and-charming/2006/09/17/1158431587552.html?page=2

"Amin made Ugandans feel proud to be African, and proud to be Ugandan. He was someone who tried to get rid of the colonial inferiority complex,"

Again, what you misinterpret as "self-love" amongst BM who hate BW is actually malignant narcissism. A clinical disorder.

http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/6297/msla.html




"It is not necessary to unjustifiably hate others in order to look out for and protect ones best interest."

I never said that it was. In fact I wholeheartedly agree with you. You do not need to hate others in order to love yourself. Self-love generally speaking is a good thing. It's only when self-love gets out of control that it turns into selfishness, vanity, and arrogance. When we love ourselves so much that we don't care how much we hurt others in order to get what we want it is no longer a good thing.

This seems to me to be what is happening in the case of black men who degrade black women. They are "getting in where they fit in" as others would say it. The racio-mysogynistic rappers are selling images to the world of themselves as hyper-masculine and sexy (self-benefitting) while degrading black women. Therefore they are indulging in self-love to the point of selfishness, vanity, and arrogance at the expense of black women. In other words they are loving themselves while hating others.

Again, you are describing narcissistic behavior which has nothing to do with true self-love.

"How is it that white men, Asian men, Indian men, African men, etc... are able to look out for their own best interests without hating women of their race?"

Well, there very well might be some men in all races who do this.

But the media seems to be perpetrating the ideology that black = masculine and white = feminine (as discussed in my first post).

You may actually believe this. Actually see this. And believe this to be the case. Where as someone else may be totally convinced the ideology is black = animalistic and led by emotions and white = human and led by intellect. The mind.

One can't say which perception is "true" or "right" or not because like beauty it's ALL in the eye of the beholder.


If the black men who are disrespecting black women subscribe to this ideology (as they seem to be doing) then they are doing so because they BELIEVE that they are better than black women.

Black men can't honestly believe they are "better" than those who brought them into the world. Those responsible for their existence. In hating BW (those BM who do) they are in essence hating the black womb they came from. Hating their own essence. Their own creation. And their own existence.

This ideology that seems prevalent in the media also explains why you do not see this behavior in some other races.

You don't see this behavior in other races because ONLY blacks were enslaved for centuries by people of the opposite race. Many if not most black men have allowed themselves to be irreparably damaged by this unfortunate historical event. Hence the term Damaged Beyond Repair.

This In fact, it seems the opposite is true at times. I've heard white women say some pretty bad things about white guys.

And I've heard some white men say some pretty bad things about white girls. It's actually pretty common on many of these Asian and Eurasian sites.

And I want to point this out in case there is any doubt. Just because I am using this ideology as an explanation of the behavior displayed by some people doesn't mean I am using it as an excuse.

EXACTLY. You are using YOUR ideology as an explanation of the behavior displayed by some people. And I am using MINE. Psychologist continue to use THEIRS.

Evia has provided her theory which meshes with mine and Halima supports your view.

This is simply an exchange of viewpoints and there can be no "winner" or "loser" in this debate/conversation.

viva la difference!

What's MOST important I think is for us all to realize that we must come to our OWN conclusions regarding controversial topics/issues.

Instead of blindly following/agreeing with someone ELSES perception of truth.

It's perfectly OK to agree to disagree.

There are as many theories/opinions as there are people regarding any number of different topics.

And what "makes sense" to us personally may not make a bit of sense to someone else.

Anonymous said...

Interesting article

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06360/748295-51.stm

Anonymous said...

Interesting article related to the topic at hand...


Looking for the "Real Men"

http://sarasbloginterraciallove.blogspot.com/

(If you're reading Sara, very good work and keep it up!)

Halima said...

I dont want to go 'round the houses' on this one however I just wanted to add that it is so important that bw begin to discard with so many of the concepts and frameworks they have been given with which to view their situation.

The explanations and frameworks we have been given for understanding the whole issue is indeed in need of critical overhaul. For one, it hasn’t gotten us very far; nothing productive has come out of conceptualising in terms of self-hate.

The word ‘self-hate’ does indeed stir up a set of emotions in bw that often keeps them tied into bm’s dysfunction instead of moving away in a useful/self-preserving manner. When you say self-hate it stirs up pity, sympathy or a need to ‘understand’/help out this poor misguided individual.

Meanwhile these men are displaying a whole lot of arrogance, personal aggrandizement at the expense of bw, self-centredness, brutality etc etc, which are all clear markers of something other than what we want to view it as, but evidence which we now choose to discard because it doesn’t fit in with the framework of self-hate. indeed it’s all there in front of us and invariably so is the solution, if we would just go with our observations than how black pop psychology tells us to view this issue.

Bw need to understand another thing, black pop psychology has an underlying aim, and that is to galvanize black people into action, to mend the race and sort ourselves out etc etc. There is nothing essentially wrong with this aim however it tends to shape the arguments and the rsulting deductions, making certain explanations and terms more accepted than others.

I mean of course black pop psychology would want to view bm actions in terms of self-hate (a pitiable situation), than self-centredness and ‘F**k everyone else as long as I get mine’, attitude, because the later suggests that bw are wasting their time or chasing the wind with all this business about building the community given how bm are less concerned about anything beyond themselves. it suggests an unworkable situation at a very fundamental level which conflicts with the aim of black pop psychology therefore we cant have that now can we!

So yes i think you have something strong here in terms of the bm=masculine, ww=beauty paradigm Sangraneth (can we simplyfy it lol!).

Build up new terms, new frameworks and new models for conceptualising our reality i say.

E-Book

Anonymous said...

I dont want to go 'round the houses' on this one however I just wanted to add that it is so important that bw begin to discard with so many of the concepts and frameworks they have been given with which to view their situation.

For sure we shouldn't go round the houses. What is important is for bw as individuals to follow their own concepts and frameworks that reflect their situation.

The explanations and frameworks we have been given for understanding the whole issue is indeed in need of critical overhaul. For one, it hasn’t gotten us very far; nothing productive has come out of conceptualising in terms of self-hate.

Nothing productive will ever come out of BW being concerned with someone else's behavior that may and may not be based in self-hatred. We can't control others. What they think. What they do. And what motivates them. It's best if BW stay concerned with what's motivating their own behavior. And start acting on their own behalf.

The word ‘self-hate’ does indeed stir up a set of emotions in bw that often keeps them tied into bm’s dysfunction instead of moving away in a useful/self-preserving manner.

When you say self-hate it stirs up pity, sympathy or a need to ‘understand’/help out this poor misguided individual.

Really? It seems to me you'd already have to have mammy tendencies to have pity, sympathy, or a need to 'understand'/help a self-hating BM. ESPECIALLY one actively abusing BW and children.

It is NOT black women's "responsibility"/job to help BM in any way shape or form. Adults do for (and get help for) themselves. Or not.

That's why it's so important that BW check themselves and stop worrying about BM and what makes them tick. Investigate what's motivating their OWN behavior and correct any mammy tendencies they may have.

Because it's these mammy tendencies that many BW have that are doing them in.


Meanwhile these men are displaying a whole lot of arrogance, personal aggrandizement at the expense of bw, self-centredness, brutality etc etc, which are all clear markers of something other than what we want to view it as but evidence which we now choose to discard because it doesn’t fit in with the framework of self-hate.

Again, others honestly see this same behavior that you describe and see NO self-love reflected. But instead sociopathic narcissism.

indeed it’s all there in front of us and invariably so is the solution, if we would just go with our observations than how black pop psychology tells us to view this issue.

People are going to view the issue from frameworks that make sense to them obviously.

Bw need to understand another thing, black pop psychology has an underlying aim, and that is to galvanize black people into action, to mend the race and sort ourselves out etc etc. There is nothing essentially wrong with this aim however it tends to shape the arguments and the rsulting deductions, making certain explanations and terms more accepted than others.

BW would be FOOLS to allow themselves to be "galvanized into action" concerning BM and any issue related to them. BW need to start thinking, doing for, and acting on behalf of THEMSELVES. I do agree that this may very well be the aim of some black psychologist (FWIW Alvin Poussaint professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has discussed the issue of self-hatred in BM in length is not a "pop" psychologist). Whether it is or isn't, BW DON'T have to fall to it.

I mean of course black pop psychology would want to view bm actions in terms of self-hate (a pitiable situation), than self-centredness and ‘F**k everyone else as long as I get mine’, attitude, because the later suggests that bw are wasting their time or chasing the wind with all this business about building the community given how bm are less concerned about anything beyond themselves.

One is free to agree or disagree with psychologist black, white, and otherwise - and other thinkers - who have attributed certain behaviors displayed by some BM as self-hatred or not. But there's no need to attach the word "pop" inferring their viewpoint is somehow necesarily illegitimate.

it suggests an unworkable situation at a very fundamental level which conflicts with the aim of black pop psychology therefore we cant have that now can we!

There doesn't need to be a conflict. One can accept the notion that some BM suffer from self-hatred while at the SAME time realizing it is not BW's responsibility to help them, try to heal them, or try to understand them.

BW need to be with healthy undamaged men from the GET GO. Period.

Black women need to get over their Savior Complex.

Anonymous said...

IT'S NOT PERSONAL...

Question posed to "The Sisters":
The majority of Black women who choose Interracial Relationships are not doing so as an affront to Black Men. Why then do many black men take it so personally?

Thought provoking responses below...

http://sistercentric-sistercentric.blogspot.com/

Grata said...

"Velveteen, the statement was simply an observation of the majority of black women that seem to display an unending supply of unconditional love and loyalty to black men. Clearly you are not one of the majority".


First time posting here but have been lurking.
I personally found this loyalty by BW very puzzling (being African) but given the history, it may be understandable. However I went went through a self improvement (read 12 step) program and one of the character defects of a dysfunctional individual, is the constant giving of loyalty that is undeserved. A healthy individual would consider their welfare while making decisions of loyalty.

The fact that this is massively practised by BW should be of grave concern to the BC as a whole because nothing heatlthy can come out of such large scale dysfunctional behavior, though some would like to believe that this behaviour is strengthening the community.

Miriam said...

Hey Sang,

I must admit, this is one of the first IR posting that changed my way of feeling.

As I was busy doing my daily thing, I starting thinking about the whole IR business and wehn through my usual suspects of emotion until I got to the part about BM.

Usually I feel a pang of sadness. Why can't they just get their act together? But this time I actually wondered -should they be pitied? Are they just doing their thing and not lost in self hate.

Well I surprised myself that this thought /feeling came.

just thought i'd post it.

Anonymous said...

I'm undergoing a similar transformation. As a single BW I never thought I'd get to the point where I'd see a BM with a non-BW and not feel anything at all. Not anger, not disgust, not betrayal, not concern, not anything. I have to say I've come a long way. For instance, this morning I saw a BM with an AW and I was shocked my face didn't get tight. I actually smiled at them as I would any couple who is happy and in love. That was truly liberating. In my mind it finally "clicked" that I too can be loved and that BM do not hold the key to my happiness. I've been reading these BW/WM IR blogs for some time and they are truly insightful. Many thanks to all of you, (bloggers, posters, and trolls alike) who are "breaking sistas out of jail".

TMH

chandy said...

aaah, @ TMH! That's beautiful to read. Keep cleansing your mindset.
I'm so addicted to these blogs myself, but from a perspective that I've been shocked to read, since I started on Evia's blog, how BW in the USofA have such low self-esteem, don't/won't consider to date other races,and on top of that get offended/mad when seeing the evidence of (their) BM dating other races. Simply WOW!. Being black myself and never having grown up in such an environment, it truly boggled my mind, hence why I've been reading all these blogs looking for answers and solutions. So reading your words, TMH, brought a smile to my heart.

Big kiss and lots of good energy your way.

Osama said...

This site is stealing your blogs.
http://whitemenforblackwomen.blogspot.com/

Read this one:
http://whitemenforblackwomen.blogspot.com/2007/10/good-bad-and-black.html

bneptune said...

If you read Simone De Beauvoir, one of the most influential female thinkings of the (post)modern era, along with Freud, Fanon, and any other sociologist who contemplated the subject-object relationship, transcendance and the Other, it becomes obvious that men hating women IS a symptom of self-hate because in today's world we unfortunatley set these two categories up against each other in binary opostion, and become mirrors of one another. also black men hating black women is similarly a symptom of self-hate because they do share a category--they are both black. so it's double self-hate. if a black man is dating a white women because he hates black women, he doesn't hate women, he hates "blackness," whatever that is. to realize oneself, to transcend alienation, you have to accept your other(s). that doesn't mean you have to love, date or marry them, but you have to acknowlege and accept. I understand the point of this person's post and agree with the general argument, but i think it's dangerous to ignore how inter-racial relationships as well as refusing to be in one can be a symptom of self hate. for example, if a black woman refuses to date a white man because she hates white men but not black men, it is self hate because she hates his "whiteness" and they share the category of being human. she refuses to accept or acknowledge this; she thus really can't accept herself...i think the authors i mentioned can put it more elequantly than i can...so read them ;)

Sangraneth said...

"If you read Simone De Beauvoir, one of the most influential female thinkings of the (post)modern era, along with Freud, Fanon, and any other sociologist who contemplated the subject-object relationship, transcendance and the Other, it becomes obvious that men hating women IS a symptom of self-hate because in today's world we unfortunatley set these two categories up against each other in binary opostion, and become mirrors of one another. also black men hating black women is similarly a symptom of self-hate because they do share a category--they are both black. so it's double self-hate."

Okay. First "double self-hate" makes no sense. Simply sharing a category with those one hates is not self-hate unless the category is the critera for the hatred. You assume that black men who hate black women hate them because they are black, not because they are black WOMEN.

I'll put it quite simply. A black man who hates black men is expressing self-hatred because he is a member of the group he hates. A black man who hates black people is expressing self-hatred because he is a member of the group he hates. A black man who hates black WOMEN is NOT expressing self-hatred because he is not a member of the group he is expressing hatred for.

YES, IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE!

"i think the authors i mentioned can put it more elequantly than i can...so read them ;)"

An eloquently stated lie is still a lie. We're dealing with facts and definitions here, not abstract theories. When dealing with facts and definitions there is only right and wrong.

Black men who continually point the finger at black women, continually berate them, put them down and blame them for all problems while simultaneously coddling and protecting black men is not expressing hatred towards black PEOPLE, they are expressing hatred specifically towards black WOMEN.

Similarly, black men who refuse to date black women, yet pursue and maintain friendships with other black men and have black men as role-models are not expressing hatred towards black PEOPLE, they are expressing hatred towards black WOMEN.

By trying to change the definition of the term self-hate into covering all forms of hatred (which is essentially what you are doing) you are essentially twisting the truth, or lying. This tactic is often used by those who seek to shame others into doing what they want them to do.

Sangraneth said...

"This site is stealing your blogs.
http://whitemenforblackwomen.blogspot.com/"

Thank you for your concern, but I assure you he is not ripping off my blog. None of the content here is copyrighted, nor should it be. These blogs are about sharing ideas and observations.

The blog you mention is C1's blog and if you look, you'll see I actually have a link to it on my blog.

bneptune said...

Good grief. This is the last time I comment here. I merely point out a philosophical stand point and I'm accused of lying and twisting the truth? Please educate yourself and pick up anybook on pyschiatry, psychology or psychoanalysis and come to realize that there is a multiplicity of self. Have you even read any of the authors I mentioned? Further, I can't believe that you are appealing to the Western construct of binary logic--there is only right and wrong--which was actually a weapon used to manipulate people. Clearly, you need to read Levi-Strauss as well. My comment was not to put down interacial relationships. In fact what is it that I want people to do anyway other than get over their hate? What I said is neutral in that it can both support and detract from pursuing an interracial relationship. It all depends on a person's motives. In future, please lay of the ad hominems. And learn respect and tolerance for points of view different from your own. I could have insulted you, but I did not.

Sangraneth said...

Bneptune said: "This is the last time I comment here. I merely point out a philosophical stand point and I'm accused of lying and twisting the truth?"

I think this statement sheds light on the problem. Saying what "self-hate" is and isn't has nothing to do with philosophical standpoints, but concerns the definition of the word self.

Bneptune said: "I can't believe that you are appealing to the Western construct of binary logic--there is only right and wrong--which was actually a weapon used to manipulate people"

I think you are confusing moral ideas of right and wrong with factual ideas of correct and incorrect.

For example, if I tell you that 2 + 2 equals 5, am I wrong, or do I simply have a different philosophical viewpoint? I am wrong. It is not a matter of moral rightness or wrongness, but is a matter of factual correctness or incorrectness. Therefore if one makes the claim that 2 + 2 = 5, regardless of what that person's philosophical standpoints are, that person is lying.


Likewise, if a black man hates black women, it would be factually incorrect to state that it is an expression of self-hate, because the hatred is not directed towards the self. Philosophical stand points have nothing to do with it.

Sophisticatedblkwoman said...

I have to admit I love alot of the commentors, but the one that gets me going is when an anonymous commentor said " What woman want is appreciation, protection, affection, loyalty and security." That is truly indeed what real woman like myself want. I'm wondering if this is why I'm so intrigued on dating non-black men, preferably wm. But, I must say I didn't always see it like this I fell for the thugs and the oh so hardcore mentalities. I actually thought that was manhood. I didn't realize it until I meet my child's father whom I'm no longer with, but I'm holding it down attending school, working fulltime and taking care of my bi-racial son on my own. My son's father is Hispanic and treated me good while it lasted. This clearly opened up my eyes to continue to explore other options outside the bm. I tried wm next and felt so much more appreciated and protected as I did with my child's father. I must say the experience at first was bitter sweet, for example I didn't understand how a non-black male could adore my chocholate silky skin, my weaves and natural afro hair, my big lips, my wide nose. It hurted so bad at first, because I realized that bm wasn't really my men, my men is a man that respects and loves me for who I am. I realized that there are non-black men out here that appreciate me more than what I thought was "my men" did. The shock of this truly did hurt and I find myself now trying to advocate to my bw friends that do not want to date outside their race, but to multiply their race and stick with bm. The problem I have with them is they go through so much BS with the bm they date, so scorned and tortured to where they from time to time call me a hater of bm, because I choose to submit to other options. I do feel I'm at a point in my life (27 yr old) to where if I was to meet a bm with the qualities of the non-black males I dated had (i.e. appreciating, protecting, showing affection and loyalty) I would give a bm a try again, but for now I'm too caught up into the way I feel when I'm with a non-black male (adored for my strength and beautiful bold features)it's something I don't want to step away from. I've also joined IR dating sites, due to me being so busy in order to meet wm that prefer me. Wow! what a great feeling if only more bw would venture out they would totally be surprised, but also hurt that the so called "our black men" doesn't adore us the same. Who's the enemy?

To end I want to say to all the bw who won't try dating outside your race, because you feel wm are predujice against you, won't accept your vivid distinctions from other women in other cultures, stop letting the bm lie to you their are some if not more wm who would adore you.( I do realize people have to have some type of physical attraction, but once you experience the kind of appreciation as I did/do it may not matter somewhat) I too was once you and it is pain, explore and open up your options don't let the fear of extinction stop you you are a bw.

Peace and Love!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:

"I'm undergoing a similar transformation. As a single BW I never thought I'd get to the point where I'd see a BM with a non-BW and not feel anything at all. Not anger, not disgust, not betrayal, not concern, not anything. I have to say I've come a long way. For instance, this morning I saw a BM with an AW and I was shocked my face didn't get tight. I actually smiled at them as I would any couple who is happy and in love. That was truly liberating. In my mind it finally "clicked" that I too can be loved and that BM do not hold the key to my happiness. I've been reading these BW/WM IR blogs for some time and they are truly insightful. Many thanks to all of you, (bloggers, posters, and trolls alike) who are "breaking sistas out of jail".

TMH"

___________________________

I am so happy to hear of someone else's transformation story. I too am on this path, though not quite completely there yet. However, I have noticed a change when I see BM with WW, I no longer look away or tense up.

I was in the Farmer's Market last week and came face-to-face with such a couple. Instead of looking away (which is my normal knee jerk reaction), I actually looked at them....first him and then I slowly looked at her. I had no judgement on my face or in my mind, I was just looking at a couple.

It was interesting what I saw...he looked away and scowled as if to say, "How dare you look at us, how dare you not be offended and outraged." She looked at me and I could see a sense of guilt and then pain, and then jealousy (of me). It was really strange.

Throughout the incident I felt like I was in this really calm, protected place and I was just an observer with no personal judgement. I wasn't staring at them but merely looking just like I would at anyone else.

I could see that he was not very mature by his reaction. BTW - I recognize that MY previous reaction to BM/WW couples was also not mature.

I have to say that I felt sorry for her which is something I NEVER in a million years thought I would say and I don't think is the case for all BM/WW couples. It just happened to be true in their case. She was clearly not in a relationship that made her happy anymore but hanging on. I know that look, I've been there. It was a longing feeling that was in her eyes. I don't know why she had that guilty look on her face first but it seemed as if once she recognized that I was not at all mad at her but just going about my daily life, her sadness showed through.

The whole thing made me wonder if BW's anger over BM/WW is fueling the trend (as another poster mentioned here). After reading these posts, reflecting, prioritizing my own needs and beginning to date the best men that approached me - no matter the color - I did not see her as taking anything away from me. I was able to see her as a woman. And as a woman, I could see her pain and actually FEEL for her.

I felt like I had grown in a real and significant way. If she had been deliriously happy I would have been happy for her as well.

It's wild, but I was really happy to see a change in myself and these blogs have helped me immeasurably. Thank you for taking the time to create such compelling posts and thanks to everyone who share their stories and insights.

Vakker Kvinne said...

Thanks for the post. I’m always very happy to read blogs/posts written about how we should all be honest and real about what we want-and go for it. I am a black American woman living and working in Norway. I moved here in July 2007 after living in Germany teaching English for two years. I met a Norwegian man while I lived in Germany, fell in love with him and moved to Norway to be with him after a year of commuting back and forth between Norway and Germany (yes the frequent flier miles I have are insane ;>). Things got rough, then went south after I moved in, so I broke it off and moved out. We may now be reconciling, and getting back together-just as soon as I can find a way to move past all that has happened. I miss him in my life and love him-and I hope one day we can “get it right” and make a future together.
I am originally from the American southwest and grew up with the norm being white women and black men as couples. I can’t tell you how many times I as a teen, was excluded from the dating scene (by both black and white men) because I wasn’t white, Hispanic or mixed (i.e. half black and white or asian). Or how when going to “black” night clubs, I got skipped over for white women who were less attractive, more overweight, less educated and who had more baggage then I had, all because white women were the prize. It was crushing to me, but worse, crushing to my fellow “sistas” who at that point, wanted to pair off and settle down. Dealing with the complexities of being a black women who is young and wants to get married and have kids one day with the right guy has been no easy feat-but it is worth it, especially considering that I have a legacy to think about.
I’ve always been open to interracial dating, but even as a teen and in my early 20’s, felt like I wasn’t black enough for the white guys and too white for the black guys. So I simply didn’t date much until I got to college when I met men from Europe, Africa and South America, who treated me like a person and liked me for who I was. Who thought I was the “hot girl”-just being who I was. I was never asked to change who I was or how I behaved by the non-Americans, only by the American men. What I have come to realize is that it wasn’t until I stood up for who I was and what I wanted, that I realized much easier my life could be-but it had to start with me.
Once I decided that and decided to life a life which honored that, I got what I wanted in terms of a mate: my Norwegian. We got sidetracked-but even now, he has no trouble telling me how much of a “catch” I am and how great he feels to have even known me, for even just a little while, in his life.
I agree with your comment about how black men are perceived-as being masculine and good catches and as having to give a little to get a lot-but I think a lot of that is bull. If the little bit of effort that a lot of black guys put out there was done by black women, we’d be talked about like crazy. We have to be perfect cooks, perfect in the sack, banks, perfect mommas, perfect at work, perfect in every way, just to be seen as a little bit desirable. And what do they “have to” do? Not much.
But as I have grown and learned, in many cultures, being a man is about being man enough to take on the responsibility of a wife and kids-being man enough to deal with and manage the realities of life in the adult world. In Jewish culture, being a man is about how much you know/have learned and how well you can provide for the woman in your life along with your kids. Same in India-being a man is about being a good provider, being a good husband and a good father. Not what kind of car you drive, who’s clothes you wear and all the stuff that fades-it’s about creating a legacy of family. Taking care of your wife and your family-by any means necessary. I like that. I hope I have that for myself one day.